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Šunų veisimas. 3 tema

QUOTE(Cererakennel @ 2012 11 21, 00:18)


Tai panašiai kaip su daltonizmu pas žmones. Serga tik vyrai, bet palikuonims gali perduot tik moterys. smile.gif
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QUOTE(Seterių_mama @ 2012 11 21, 00:31)
Tai panašiai kaip su daltonizmu pas žmones. Serga tik vyrai, bet palikuonims gali perduot tik moterys. smile.gif

taip.. ir kriptorchizmas pas žmones analogiškai .. vadinasi tai ne recesyvas ir ne poligenas. Recesyvas atsako už kailio, akių spalvas, dantų nebuvimą, išvaržas. O va klubo, sąkandžio, vidaus organų problemas, apsigimimus gali kelti daugiau nei vienas genas. t.y poligeniškumas

įdedu angliškai gal kam įdomu

WHAT IS A RECESSIVE TRAIT? A recessive trait is a trait for which two copies of the gene must be present for the trait to be seen. This means that is takes two to tango & BOTH parents HAD TO HAVE the gene in question. This is VERY important to understand clearly, as complex dominance and polygenetic traits must be treated (somewhat) as one treats recessive traits to rid a bloodline of a problem or mimimize the effects of a trait. BOTH parents are PROVEN (obligate) CARRIERS if they EVER produce ONE SINGLE PUP EVER with a recessive trait. This means yellow (fawn,sable, red ) or blue/brown dogs out of black animals, yellow eyes from brown eyed animals, missing teeth, cataracts and hernias (in some breeds these are simple recessives), etc. There are many, many traits on this list. So don't point fingers & hide pups with recessive traits. Contact the stud owner, mark the pedigrees properly & help make progress in your breed (and your bloodline). Mark both parents as obligate carriers, mark all "normal" offspring as 66.66% likely to also be carriers & look for common relatives of the parents who likely brought the trait down to the current generation. Don't condemn--it takes two carriers to mate to find out you got a trait--consider this an opportunity to learn more about your bloodline.You don't have to toss all the dogs on the reject pile either necessarily. If the trait is acceptable (for all it is undesirable) & liveable for the dogs, then just letting it go may be an option. If the trait is serious, then how you treat it may depend on how widespread it is in your breed. If it is rare, then best to cull these animals who are carriers from the gene pool. If it is common, then such a drastic approach may not be reasonable & you will have to use carefully marked pedigrees and/or test breedings to control the expression of the gene. After all, remember, it is not the GENE that causes the problem, but the expression of that gene.

WHAT IS MEANT BY POLYGENETIC? Polygenetic is how many serious problems in dogs are characterized genetically. This means more than one gene is responsible for the condition's expression, and that means tracking the inheritance is more difficult and more frustrating than with simple dominants & simple recessives. Although it is certainly not precise, treating polygenetic situations as you would treat simple recessives is probably going to get you the best results as to controlling canine genetic disease, when your options for "proof" are limited. Certainly, both parents must be included as likely contributors to the disease. As a rule of thumb complex characteristics are polygenetic: hip conformation & CHD disease, head conformation and the resulting bite, construction of internal organs (that end in heart, kidney, etc. malformation or malfunction as well as normal function, of course). In some cases a single gene IS found to be the culprit, but in many cases inheritance is erratic and any particular form has not been documented, so these things get stuck into the "polygenetic" pile until they get sorted out. This does NOT mean they are "not genetic" because a certain proof of how they are inherited is lacking-that is more head in the sand tactics. If it occurs in a particular population (such as a certain breed or even bloodline) more often than in the general population, then, to be careful and conservative as a breeder, it must be treated with the caution of it being genetically inherited until proven otherwise. Anyone truly concerned with the breed is not going to dismiss the evidence it is LIKELY genetic to go on with a breeding program in denial they are carrying down certain undesirable (or even debilitating) traits.
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Šį pranešimą redagavo Cererakennel: 20 lapkričio 2012 - 23:40
QUOTE(Cererakennel @ 2012 11 21, 00:38)
taip.. ir kriptorchizmas pas žmones analogiškai .. vadinasi tai ne recesyvas ir ne poligenas. Recesyvas atsako už kailio, akių spalvas, dantų nebuvimą, išvaržas. O va klubo, sąkandžio, vidaus organų problemas, apsigimimus gali kelti daugiau nei vienas genas. t.y poligeniškumas

įdedu angliškai gal kam įdomu

WHAT IS A RECESSIVE TRAIT? A recessive trait is a trait for which two copies of the gene must be present for the trait to be seen. This means that is takes two to tango & BOTH parents HAD TO HAVE the gene in question. This is VERY important to understand clearly, as complex dominance and polygenetic traits must be treated (somewhat) as one treats recessive traits to rid a bloodline of a problem or mimimize the effects of a trait. BOTH parents are PROVEN (obligate) CARRIERS if they EVER produce ONE SINGLE PUP EVER with a recessive trait. This means yellow (fawn,sable, red ) or blue/brown dogs out of black animals, yellow eyes from brown eyed animals, missing teeth, cataracts and hernias (in some breeds these are simple recessives), etc. There are many, many traits on this list. So don't point fingers & hide pups with recessive traits. Contact the stud owner, mark the pedigrees properly & help make progress in your breed (and your bloodline). Mark both parents as obligate carriers, mark all "normal" offspring as 66.66% likely to also be carriers & look for common relatives of the parents who likely brought the trait down to the current generation. Don't condemn--it takes two carriers to mate to find out you got a trait--consider this an opportunity to learn more about your bloodline.You don't have to toss all the dogs on the reject pile either necessarily. If the trait is acceptable (for all it is undesirable) & liveable for the dogs, then just letting it go may be an option. If the trait is serious, then how you treat it may depend on how widespread it is in your breed. If it is rare, then best to cull these animals who are carriers from the gene pool. If it is common, then such a drastic approach may not be reasonable & you will have to use carefully marked pedigrees and/or test breedings to control the expression of the gene. After all, remember, it is not the GENE that causes the problem, but the expression of that gene.

WHAT IS MEANT BY POLYGENETIC? Polygenetic is how many serious problems in dogs are characterized genetically. This means more than one gene is responsible for the condition's expression, and that means tracking the inheritance is more difficult and more frustrating than with simple dominants & simple recessives. Although it is certainly not precise, treating polygenetic situations as you would treat simple recessives is probably going to get you the best results as to controlling canine genetic disease, when your options for "proof" are limited. Certainly, both parents must be included as likely contributors to the disease. As a rule of thumb complex characteristics are polygenetic: hip conformation & CHD disease, head conformation and the resulting bite, construction of internal organs (that end in heart, kidney, etc. malformation or malfunction as well as normal function, of course). In some cases a single gene IS found to be the culprit, but in many cases inheritance is erratic and any particular form has not been documented, so these things get stuck into the "polygenetic" pile until they get sorted out. This does NOT mean they are "not genetic" because a certain proof of how they are inherited is lacking-that is more head in the sand tactics. If it occurs in a particular population (such as a certain breed or even bloodline) more often than in the general population, then, to be careful and conservative as a breeder, it must be treated with the caution of it being genetically inherited until proven otherwise. Anyone truly concerned with the breed is not going to dismiss the evidence it is LIKELY genetic to go on with a breeding program in denial they are carrying down certain undesirable (or even debilitating) traits.



Labai labai gerą temą užkabinote!
Tai ar teisingai supratau dėl tų dantų nebuvimo:jei abu tėvai nors kartą turėjo šuniuką be danties kažkokio,tai reiškiasi,kad abu jie-nešiotojai?(taip pat ir su katarakta)?
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Тут хорошие статьи о генетике собак
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fkashmir.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55%3A2011-06-30-17-51-21&catid=34%3A2011-06-30-17-22-19&Itemid=64&showall=1

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QUOTE(algescot @ 2012 11 21, 02:32)
Labai labai gerą temą užkabinote!
Tai ar teisingai supratau dėl tų dantų nebuvimo:jei abu tėvai nors kartą turėjo šuniuką be danties kažkokio,tai reiškiasi,kad abu jie-nešiotojai?(taip pat ir su katarakta)?

teoriškai taip. bet reikia neužmiršti, kad katarakta gali būti tiek įgimta tiek įgyta. ir jei šuniukas koks iš vados užaugęs turi kataraka, tai dar nereiškia, kad ją paveldėjo iš tėvų

ačiū Sever drinks_cheers.gif
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Šį pranešimą redagavo Cererakennel: 21 lapkričio 2012 - 10:11
QUOTE(Cererakennel @ 2012 11 21, 11:10)
teoriškai taip. bet reikia neužmiršti, kad katarakta gali būti tiek įgimta tiek įgyta. ir jei šuniukas koks iš vados užaugęs turi kataraka, tai dar nereiškia, kad ją paveldėjo iš tėvų

ačiū Sever  drinks_cheers.gif


Tai tas recesyvinis paveldimas požymis(dantų nebuvimas) būtų pvz "aa"?
Ir jei daugintume jį su dominantiniu "AA",visi palikuonys gimtų heterozigotiniai "Aa"?
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QUOTE(algescot @ 2012 11 21, 13:29)
Tai tas recesyvinis paveldimas požymis(dantų nebuvimas) būtų pvz "aa"?
Ir jei daugintume jį su dominantiniu "AA",visi palikuonys gimtų heterozigotiniai "Aa"?

teoriškai vėlgi taip.. bet kaip žinot kad parinktas partneris AA, o ne Aa? Pagal spalvas dar gali bandyti atsekti kažkaip..bet kaip su dantim?
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QUOTE(Cererakennel @ 2012 11 21, 13:45)
teoriškai vėlgi taip.. bet kaip žinot kad parinktas partneris AA, o ne Aa? Pagal spalvas dar gali bandyti atsekti kažkaip..bet kaip su dantim?


Na taip...tas tiesa smile.gif Niekad tiksliai pasakyti negalima,ypač jei pas porininką irgi kažkada yra buvę bedančių kilmės linijose(nors ir visi būtų buvę pašalinti iš veisimo ir toliau buvo vis veisiama su dominantais),vistiek gauti Aa yra rizika...
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QUOTE(algescot @ 2012 11 21, 14:00)
Na taip...tas tiesa smile.gif Niekad tiksliai pasakyti negalima,ypač jei pas porininką irgi kažkada yra buvę bedančių kilmės linijose(nors ir visi būtų buvę pašalinti iš veisimo ir toliau buvo vis veisiama su dominantais),vistiek gauti Aa yra rizika...

kas bjauriausia genetikoje, kad pvz kergiant AA ir Aa gali gauti ir AA ir Aa.. bet vadoje visi gali būti Aa, arba visi AA.. nežinai kaip gamta sumes kiekvienu atveju...
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QUOTE(Cererakennel @ 2012 11 21, 14:04)
kas bjauriausia genetikoje, kad pvz kergiant AA ir Aa gali gauti ir AA ir Aa.. bet vadoje visi gali būti Aa, arba visi AA.. nežinai kaip gamta sumes kiekvienu atveju...


Kažin,čia vis kalbam apie tuos tyrimus,o neįmanoma nustatyti genų paveldimumo pasireiškimo išraikos kokiais tyrimais... g.gif

O kaip su tuo kailiu yra,juk daug tų spalvų,kaip pritaikyti tą geno recesyviškumą čia?
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QUOTE(algescot @ 2012 11 21, 14:09)
Kažin,čia vis kalbam apie tuos tyrimus,o neįmanoma nustatyti genų paveldimumo pasireiškimo išraikos kokiais tyrimais... g.gif

O kaip su tuo kailiu yra,juk daug tų spalvų,kaip pritaikyti tą geno recesyviškumą čia?

na teoriškai spalvų nėra tiek daug.. pvz mūsų, prancūzų buldogų atveju mes turim tigrinį ( dominantą) , smėlį ir dėmėtą ( recesyvai). visos kitos spalvos, tokios kaip mėlyna, ruda, yra ta pati tigrinė spalva tik turinti tam tikras patologijas ( melanino trūkumas ir tt). už spalvos švarumą vėlgi atsakingas atskiras genas, kaip ir už taškuotumą pvz. dažniausiai visos problemos yra susijusios su recesyvu.
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Kurie iš šių akių tyrimų gali būti ištirti genetiniame lygyje:
Trečiojo voko liaukutės išsivertimas, Paveldima katarakta, Lęšiuko išnirimas, Glaukoma, Mikroftalmija, Ragenos distrofija? ax.gif
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