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QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 17:42)
Fire place. Passive or "almost-passiv" = better low energy houses in Slovakia have total energy loss  1,5-3 kW. Calculating ext. temperatures are -12 to -21°C. Most of Slovakia has -12 or -15°C. Fire places have power range from 2 kW to 4 or 5 kW. If people use the fire place, they use it for short time on low power. Many of them love temperatures 24-26°C = they are glad that fire place increases the temperature e.g. from 23 to 26!!! Or from 21 to 23°C. They want fire place for pleasure, romantics... I think it isn“t  unreal to have it in passive house. Very important is: the accumulation ability / capacity in the floor and walls.

drinks_cheers.gif I agree with you, just would like to add about the chimney, the influence to air tightness and problems with chimney and roof insulation...and the costs of installing.
The people are everywhere the same, some are hoping the fire place will give a cheap heating(free heating biggrin.gif ), some would sacrifice the tightness and quality of insulation just for the romance smile.gif
Atsakyti
We have different price politics in PHTV. 0,50 €/kWh was 3-5 years before. Now it is less, I don“t know... But it is lower than total price for customers in single tarif.
High buy-out prices are only for large installations, 10 kW and up. I don“t understand to these abnormal laws. Our newest law doesn“t support small instalations (which is good for el. system), but supports those large ones which bring problems with regulation and make electricity too expensive. I don“t say "well done" on PHTV fields... the investors are from abroad... and our money flows abroad...
I am against subsidies in this form.

We are going to buy PHTV panels without state subsidy, bonus or purchase price. Everything I do or buy, I do and buy therefore it is based on market and it is effective. With our PHTV panel so, too: Their price is 0,9 € incl VAT/Wp. 1500 Wp (together) is 1350 €. Plus 2 cables 20 €. Construction will be as shading above south windows... should I count constrction, too? Panels save 200 € per year. Term of return of money for panels is 7 years.

I wanted liquid system (solar panels, pipes...) but it was hard get the price for all system under 1300 €. This PHTV system seems very simple for me...

Small wind turbine - of course, I wanted... we have it in project. But this isn“t economic way. I must wait for lower prices.

The floor heating - I don“t think it“s a mistake. I didn“t want heating and ventilation together. If it is simple, classical system, the air becomes too dry. And if the unit includes humidification, price and service is too expensive. E.g. Paul - ventilation.
I see conflict here: heating is neccesary in the night, ventilation during the day (mainly).
Some recup. units have special cycle for heating - if ventilation isn“t necessary, they only heat. The air isn“t going through the bathroom away but is flowed out in the hall, goes into the unit, is heated and goes again to the rooms. Not ideal, I know. The price of this unit is 3000-3500 €.

I have never seen a simple liquid-to-air exchanger... in Czech or Slovak rep.

I know that floor won“t be warm. Our heating water“s temperature will be 31-32°C. Temperature of the floor about 24°C. Heating will go on 2-3 times a day. We are not the ones who has this.



QUOTE(Vilienė @ 2012 08 18, 15:34)
WOW PV for DHW! The grid would pay nearly 0.50EUR/kWh made by PV in Lithuania, I would say not the cheapest way to heat the domestic water biggrin.gif
The only advantage I see is the energy vaste from the PV panel and the electrical heater in the boiler - that is definatelly more eficient that vacuum type of sun collector we used to use for DHW.
What about the price of the system? How much is the PV panels for the family of 4 water demands? I do travel though Slovakia  time to time, I have noticed a big increase in PV fields, can say "well done" 4u.gif
What about wind power? That is a bit cheaper to install, do you use wind power for DHW as well?
Papildyta:

Jarka, I think you have done the same mistake like me smile.gif  The floor heating in passive house is just a money waisting. A small one level house living two with heated floor of 83m2 has used ~380m3 of gas last winter, from 07/10 to 01/04, that including the DHW (asistance to vacuum collector). I can not remember even one day when I stood on that floor and could enjoy the heat, the warm of it - the temperature has been very close to the air temperature in the house.
I think the best way of pasive house heating is a post heater in the ventilation system, just a simple liquid-to-air exchanger or electrical air heater in the supply duct. Cheap and fast to install, can be fed by any sourse of energy. I bet that would much cheaper to install than the pipes in your and my floor.

Papildyta:
Is it able, to make "LIKE" on any post? I don“t want send extra posts with "I agree". Thank you.
Atsakyti
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 18:45)

I have never seen a simple liquid-to-air exchanger... in Czech or Slovak rep.

Can't remember the name of Czech producer of ventilation equipment, sure I have seen heater like this in their products list.
Atsakyti
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 17, 20:09)
Then I shaded windows. In these days, it is warm and sunny outside, but the temperature in the house is 25°C. I think it“s fine.
Windows are very dangerous in Summer... I see.


Have you used some professional shadowing solutions (roofing, blinds, etc.), or you just simply shaded the windows from the inside? Thanks.
Atsakyti
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 18:45)
The air isn“t going through the bathroom away but is flowed out in the hall, goes into the unit, is heated and goes again to the rooms. Not ideal, I know. The price of this unit is 3000-3500 €.

You mean recirculation?
Do you know why one of the PH standards is set 10W/m2? I think this heat power can be delivered by air without axceeding the temperature +50C of the air in the duct when you can smell the burning dust, comfortablly. In this case PH do not need the recirculation, the ventilation volume is enough to distribute the heat around the house.
I am pretty sure you have seen this: PH in Kronsberg
The unit doesn't have to heat, the heating is after the ventilation unit - that is why it's called "postheater". You can use any unit, just have to keep in mind a little bigger preasure loss due to canal postheater. The post heater have to rise the air temperature to cover heat loss due to ventilation and the loss the house has got over the walls/windows/slab/roof/etc. It won't affect absolute humidity of air, just rise the temperature.
Atsakyti
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 16:08)
Yes, only electricity. Our first plan was:  el. convectors, 50€/pc x 8 pc = 400 €. And el. boiler 150 €. Very cheap, heating for 550 €.
But I don“t like convectors on the wall or on the floor... and walk around them... and clean them from dust... oh no...  So we decided to install floor heating joined on boiler. The boiler is the only source for warm water in household and for heating, too. We bought Logitex 125 liters (prepared for photovolt. panels - next year). The boiler has an exchanger (snake) which will serve for floor heating. Floor heating will take warm from the boiler through the "snake". This system“s price is 1200 €.


I see. I have chosen electric stone radiators, as I hate air heating and all the miseries caused by hydronic systems (water or other liquid-based), as I am quite lazy guy, also the heating area in my house would be not so large - apprx. 130 sq.m., so based on heating projector's calculations, simple & staight el. heating through the radiators should not be expensive (except installation, of course). Just wondering, what is your house's heating area?
Atsakyti
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 18:45)
I wanted liquid system (solar panels, pipes...) but it was hard get the price for all system under 1300 €. This PHTV system seems very simple for me...

I've just had two pieces of this installed at my work, two because we need at least 250-300 l, that cost a bit less than 1000€ - parts, labor and the control unit. This will work in summer only it is fed by water directly, my house has got 48pipes with glicol system - that is more than I need for DHW and I am trying to use that for the house heating. Of cause these are "made in CPR" do not know if you tolerate that.
One pipe has got a power of ~100W so if you need 1.5kW I am sure we could beat the price of 1300eur easily 4u.gif
If you go into PV panels you should know - which panels do you prefer, mono or policristal? I will be using them for the house lightening, I have already made the supply grid of 12DC to use the LED.
Papildyta:
QUOTE(==== @ 2012 08 18, 19:36)
Just wondering, what is your house's heating area?

Turint laiko ir kantrybės su internetiniu vertėju - galima rasti daug atsakymų pačiam.
Tik jei versitės tai ne iš čekų, bet iš slovakų - googlo vertėjui tai labai padeda.
Atsakyti
Šį pranešimą redagavo Vilienė: 18 rugpjūčio 2012 - 19:15
We don“t live there, yet. I gave there paper from the outside... and AL folia. It is only a temporary solution for testing what is the power of the Sun and how to face sunny days.
In the future, I want to give the construction for PHTV panels above south windows. If not, we want to do a pergola with plants. The best solution is: do not let the sun directly shines on the window. The acumulation of the house isn“t endless. If the ext. temperature is 30-40°C day, 25°C night during 2 weeks, like this Summer - temperature in the house goes up. Our earth (basis) air heat-exchanger has not strong cooling.

And inner energ. profit - will have influence, too... but not such singnificant. The biggest inner profits arise in the kitchen and the bathroom. They are going away quite quickly. The heat from the sun flows through all the house, from the south windows to the exhausts of the air on the north side of the house.

Inner shading is poor because waves come through the glazing into the house. In our clim. conditions and in passive or low-en. houses is it poor.

QUOTE(==== @ 2012 08 18, 17:24)
Have you used some professional shadowing solutions (roofing, blinds, etc.), or you just simply shaded the windows from the inside? Thanks.
Atsakyti
Oh, I didn“t understand you at first. I thought that you mean exchanger with humidification. I“m sorry for that. Those things like from Salda - I know.

QUOTE(Vilienė @ 2012 08 18, 17:03)
Can't remember the name of Czech producer of ventilation equipment, sure I have seen heater like this in their products list.


Yes. But not every passive house has 10 W/m2. If it has large area of windows, it isn“t able. But 15 kWh/(m2a) they have - thanks to solar profits.
Our house has 14,5 W/m2.
No. I haven“t read about Kronsberg. Thank you.
Solutions with postheater - some of them are in CZ and SK. But they are rarely. Projectants and investors, too, choose other solutions. In the literature = theory about passive houses, there it IS but... but praxis is other. It“s too hard to project a house with 10 W/m2. Sometimes I“m happy when I get "better" low energy house.


QUOTE(Vilienė @ 2012 08 18, 17:29)
You mean recirculation?
Do you know why one of the PH standards is set 10W/m2? I think this heat power can be delivered by air without axceeding the temperature +50C of the air in the duct when you can smell the burning dust, comfortablly. In this case PH do not need the recirculation, the ventilation volume is enough to distribute the heat around the house.
I am pretty sure you have seen this: PH in Kronsberg
The unit doesn't have to heat, the heating is after the ventilation unit - that is why it's called "postheater". You can use any unit, just have to keep in mind a little bigger preasure loss due to canal postheater. The post heater have to rise the air temperature to cover heat loss due to ventilation and the loss the house has got over the walls/windows/slab/roof/etc.  It won't affect absolute humidity of air, just rise the temperature.


Yes, this thing was one of my favorites... price 1200-1300 € in Slovakia. (from China or Greece). We prepared two water-pipes for this solution.
Our panels will be probably mono (Canadian solar). F. Logitex has done some measurements in our conditions. They say that average energ. profit per year is similar (mono vs. poly). Plus other reasons why they prefer mono.
This is not my problem Nr. 1 now. Next year. :-)

QUOTE(Vilienė @ 2012 08 18, 17:53)
I've just had two pieces of this installed at my work, two because we need at least 250-300 l, that cost a bit less than 1000€ - parts,  labor and the control unit. This will work in summer only it is fed by water directly, my house has got 48pipes with glicol system - that is more than I need for DHW and I am trying to use that for the house heating. Of cause these are "made in CPR" do not know if you tolerate that.
One pipe has got a power of ~100W so if you need 1.5kW I am sure we could beat the price of 1300eur easily 4u.gif
If you go into PV panels you should know - which panels do you prefer, mono or policristal? I will be using them for the house lightening, I have already made the supply grid of 12DC to use the LED.

Papildyta:
Our heating area is 120 m2. We used 320 m heating pipes = 320 €.


QUOTE(==== @ 2012 08 18, 17:36)
what is your house's heating area?

Atsakyti
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 20:21)
Our earth (basis) air heat-exchanger has not strong cooling.

You know the power depends on the air quantity, on the volume. You should increase the ventilation to get more cooling power. Together with the window shading this must work 4u.gif
Papildyta:
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 21:03)

Yes, this thing was one of my favorites... price 1200-1300 € in Slovakia. (from China or Greece). We prepared two water-pipes for this solution.

400€ for one piece, you need 3 pieces - 1200€ with VAT.
Atsakyti
Yes, of course. I tried it - and it works. But I don“t want to flow the air very strong - our ears and eyes feel it!

Solar - thank you.

QUOTE(Vilienė @ 2012 08 18, 19:20)
You know the power depends on the air quantity, on the volume. You should increase the ventilation to get more cooling power. Together with the window shading this must work 4u.gif
Papildyta:
400€ for one piece, you need 3 pieces - 1200€ with VAT.
Atsakyti
Šį pranešimą redagavo Jarka: 18 rugpjūčio 2012 - 20:26
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 21:03)
No. I haven“t read about Kronsberg.  Thank you.

So you should read this and this as well.
Papildyta:
QUOTE(Jarka @ 2012 08 18, 21:24)
Yes, of course. T tried it - and it works. But I don“t want to flow the air very strong - our ears and eyes feel it!

Solar - thanks you.

tongue.gif Sometimes the eyes and the ears have to suffer to stop all the body from sweating biggrin.gif
If you shade all the window and have just reflected sun energy + heat (cool loss I should say) loss over the walls/roof/windows it is simple to count the air volume you need to cool the house if you know the air temperature your earth pipe delivers, it wont be such a big to cause you discomfort. I guess you will need <1kW.
Atsakyti